Joshua Graves
Exploring the Collision of Culture & Faith
Leaving Church?
November 12, 2011

UPDATED NOTE: By “church” I mean an intentional community that worships, studies, and lives the person of Jesus. This “church” might meet weekly in a basement, Starbucks, or even . . . a building. Gasp.

A respected friend recently pointed out Ian Cron’s blog post per 40 and 50 somethings and their disillusionment with the church. I also just noticed that my friend Mike posted Ian’s thoughts to his blog as well. Both Ian and Mike are friends of mine. I greatly respect them. I’ve learned a great deal from both and I think they raise an important conversation that has to take place in church, outside church, on twitter, Facebook, blogs–anywhere people talk about things that matter this thing that matters needs to be discussed. Mostly–they raise the point that questions are often more important than answers. Especially for those who are truly wrestling with God.

I’m especially interested in Ian’s blog because so many of friends “my age” (25-39) are leaving church in droves. I want Otter Creek to be a place where those with big questions can follow Jesus too.

You can read Ian’s complete post HERE. An excerpt from a conversation Ian had with a friend who’d left the church:

“One Sunday I walked out of church and never went back,” he said. “I want spiritual community, I just don’t think the church as it is right now is where I’m going to find it.”

Most of the people I meet who are leaving church aren’t young. They’re in their forties and fifties. After years of reading off the same theological script they began yearning for deeper, more open conversations about faith that included considering diverse perspectives and conversations that widened rather than narrowed their souls. Their churches were either threatened by these folks or unprepared for their emergence.

First, here’s what I like about Ian’s post. Here’s what challenged me as a Christian leader and thinker.

1. If church is a social club in which the real passions of my heart can’t be discussed, it’s only a matter of time before apathy and cynicism set in. If church is primarily about keeping up appearance, appeasing family systems and values, then people might be gathering on a Sunday, but it’s not necessarily church (only God can determine that). From large assemblies, to smaller groups doing “life together” (as the life group I’m in likes to say)–authenticity must be the cultural norm not the exception. For instance, confession and lament need to become a regular part of our liturgy, preaching, and equipping strategy. Rachel Held Evans: “Most of the people I’ve encountered are looking not for a religion to answer all their questions but for a community of faith in which they can feel safe asking them.”

I encourage friends to ask the big questions (race, Islam, violence, sexuality) because God is big enough. I try to model this in my preaching and writing solely because I want to see others do the same in their own journey.

2. Church and community are very difficult. Church is a great idea until people get involved. Bonhoeffer consistently warns us in his various writings that we destroy community when we try and create it. Meaning–community, in and of itself, cannot be the goal. Rather, community is the space in which we communally seek to experience the resurrected Jesus. That being said, anyone who’s been a part of a church community knows that relationships will suffer, endure disappointment because this is true in any community (just ask Penn State students and employees).

But there’s another side to all of this. The following is written in humility.

1. Most Protestant churches today are led by the peers of the disillusioned. That is, when Boomers criticize church leadership and culture they are simultaneously criticizing themselves. These churches are led by women and men they’ve shared life with. So, and indictment on church leadership is also self-indictment. The problems are not “out there” among “those people”. The problem is with us, me, we. I have learned to be suspicious of them, him, and they.

2. The real issue is being skirted. I think the real cause of disillusionment with church is self-disappointment. Pain birthed anger, now solidified in cynicism and apathy (funny how those two always go together). Frustration with “the church” is first about frustration with self. We tend to, in the wisdom of Donald Miller, judge others based on actions while judging ourselves based upon our intent. We are harder on “the church” so we can be “easier” on ourselves. This is why some Christians literally demand more from their church than they do from their own family, their own personal lives (money, time, etc.).

3. A heavy dose of entitlement and self-deception is present in many of these conversations. Boomers, much to the admittance of all generations, are perhaps the first truly consumer generation in American history. Their kids (of which I’m guilty) are even starker consumers precisely because we were raised in the milieu of “gaining, acquiring, achieving, and consuming” to our heart’s content. I now look back and see the simple practices my parents instilled (hospitality, simplicity, generosity with money) to challenge these larger temptations. Honestly, it’s something I’m trying to reevaluate as we are watching our two boys grow and emerge.

Barbara Brown Taylor wrote a provocative and controversial book several years ago, Leaving Church. It created a stir because it both resonated with so many and, at the same time, served as an example of what happens when you actually do leave a church. If you have not read it, I think it embodies the tension I’m naming in this post. The tension we must live in: critiquing the church without excusing our own dysfunction.

How can you change something if you won’t stay and fight for what you believe? I know some will say, “Josh, you are 32. Talk to me when you are older and understand things a little more clearer.” Maybe that’s true. But I pray, God help me, that I will love the church enough to speak prophetically while, at the same time, realize that God’s love for me is far more gracious, risky, illogical, loyal, steadfast than any paltry and minuscule love I might offer the church.

I really believe that the local church is part of the genius of the kingdom.

My experience in Rochester (a suburb of Detroit) and Nashville resonates with Ian et al but is also different. I found that, in every congregation, there are women and men hungry to have deep friendship, conversation, and, yes, open disagreement. I’ve been able to cultivate friendships in both church contexts in which I’ve been able to bare my soul, say exactly what I think, what I don’t think, and what I’m not sure of.

And I’m a minister.

Did I make some people mad with tough questions? Do bears defecate in the woods? Did I hurt some people with direct questions? Of course. But, I also had many people say, “Me too…”–some of the most powerful words a person can speak. I have friends in Michigan, Nashville, and Texas that I can share any question, passion, concern–I don’t have to hold anything back. But those friendships have been fought for, worked through, endured over the last 12 years.

I view my relationship with the church as I do my marriage. I can fixate on Kara, how I wish she’d change, meet my needs, etc. or I can see the beauty that is Kara because of her imperfections, shortcomings, peculiar habits (Kara: if you are reading this, you are perfect). I also have to remember that Kara is making this decision too–every day of her life.

I’m not giving up on church for the same reason I’m not giving up on Kara. God has me here, on the anvil, because God knows I want to hide, take the path of least resistance.

It’s hard for me to imagine Martin Luther, Martin Luther King Jr., Bonhoeffer –or the original disciples for that matter– ever giving up and leaving the church because, turns out, church is hard work. It is it possible that privilege and affluence are partly behind our rationale to “give up on church” in the first place?

BTW–when I have shared this before, one person responded that “I couldn’t tell the difference between Church and God.” Really? This post doesn’t necessarily mean that I’ve confused my commitment to the church with my allegiance to God. I recognize there’s a difference; often a larger gulf than I care to admit.

But I’m not giving up on the church Because God’s never given up on me, humanity, or creation. What right do I have?

So, instead of giving up on church, work hard to change, reform, expand, renovate. And, at the same time, realize that in doing so, God might just be working on you too.

Thoughts and comments welcome. Be civil and thoughtful, please.

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38 Comments

Josh,
I attended Rochester for many years, a couple of those years while you and Kara were there, before I moved out of state. I now do not go to “church” very often. But I do go tot church. I don’t see a building on Sunday mornings as church. I see it as just that, a building, and for most of what I have seen, that building is full of people “playing the part” by going there on Sunday mornings so they can look the christian part. THAT is not where I go to spend time worshipping my Lord and growing closer to him. To me church is any group of true christians who have the Lord living in their heart. Not necessarily on a Sunday morninga nd not necessarily in some building. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am confused. I just know that I feel closer to God than I ever have, I feel him in my heart. I love, honor and worship Him; in my heart and soul every day. Is that not enough? Please, tell me if I am wrong.

by Jennifer (Nov 12 2011, 12:49 pm)

love it!

“But I’m not giving up on the church Because God’s never given up on me, humanity, or creation. What right do I have?

So, instead of giving up on church, work hard to change, reform, expand, renovate. And, at the same time, realize that in doing so, God might just be working on you too.”

well said, well said.

by kenny (Nov 12 2011, 1:58 pm)

Hi Josh,

Brilliant post!

I think it was Schopenhauer who compared humans to porcupines.

He wrote, “The colder it gets outside, the more we huddle together for warmth; but the closer we get to one another, the more we hurt one another with our sharp quills.
And in the lonely night of earth’s winter eventually we begin to drift apart and wander out on our own and freeze to death in our loneliness.”

This is the rub, isn’t it? All human communities disappoint us, whether its our families of origin, marriages, the corporations we work for, or the church we attend.

We come together hoping we’ll find succor and safety but discover that along with these salutary blessings comes the periodic jab of the quill. Alas. Inevitable.

Can we succumb to disillusionment and retreat to Starbucks with our Bibles on Sunday mornings? Sure. But if Schopenhauer is right, the cost of departure can be very high indeed.

“Wandering the lonely night of earth’s winter” leads to a cold ending.

Most pastors are not as kind, smart, or enlightened as you, and not all churches are as safe as Otter Creek. Your folks are fortunate. Many people have suffered terrible spiritual violence at the hands of church leaders or congregations whose theology and practice of grace were impoverished at best. Sometimes they can trace the “fatal injury” to a specific moment, but it usually the result of a thousand little muggings and robberies endured over years in the church.

For some reason I have a heart for these cynics and malcontents. Most still love Jesus but they just can’t figure out how to do the church thing anymore. I have thoughts about how to create a safe container or holding zone for them but space and my dog needing a walk prevent me from continuing.

Let’s talk more about it in the days to come.

Ian

Maybe its because I’m a priest who has been beaten up by a church before, but I can’t desert. As Augustine said, “The Church is a whore, but she’s my mother.”

by Ian Morgan Cron (Nov 12 2011, 2:19 pm)

Very insightful Josh. You say very succinctly some of the things I’ve been processing in a much less organized way. I’m a 50-something, certainly not on my way out, but in need of a defense for staying put! Much food for thought and prayer here.

thanks,
Karen

by Karen Sampson (Nov 12 2011, 2:59 pm)

As a member of a tiny, elderly and dying church I am exactly here. Each time I go on a bit of a rant about all the things that the “church” needs to change if we are to revive and serve our community (within and without) then God shows me the ways, ideas, opinions that I need to change in order to actually be of help in this situation…oh, and of course, Kara is perfect! :-)

by Donna (Nov 12 2011, 3:18 pm)

Josh,

Thank you for this thoughtful, honest and provocative piece. I am one of those preachers in their 50’s who understands exactly what you are musing about. I also know that all the baby boomer “high hopes” about how things would be so different when they were leading has been tried and found wanting. My cynicism in only held in check by Jesus. Recently, I shared a plenary session at Elder Link with Charles Siburt on Minister Shortage: Subtle Losses We are Facing. Obviously, the losses are becoming no so subtle. It’s Saturday night and Sunday is coming. I am praying we will hear a word from God.

by Grady King (Nov 12 2011, 4:14 pm)

“I’m not giving up on church for the same reason I’m not giving up on Kara. God has me here, on the anvil, because God knows I want to hide, take the path of least resistance.”

I love this section, because I believe it is the crux of the matter. We live in a society that says, “If it’s not working for me, just leave.” Whether it’s marriage, church, job, parenting, whatever. If it’s harder than you thought it would be get out.

Relationships, whether human or spiritual, take effort to sustain and grow.

Thanks for this one. It made me think : )

by Melanie (Nov 12 2011, 4:16 pm)

Ian-Your comment on my post was better than my actual post. Ha. I appreciate your voice a great deal. Thankful you are able to speak into the lives of those broken and hurting.

by Josh (Nov 12 2011, 6:44 pm)

Donna and Melanie. Great words. Thanks so much.

by Josh (Nov 12 2011, 6:44 pm)

Josh, Thank you for this. I am “older”, than you anyway…and I have felt this way for years! I can remember as a young mother sitting in class knowing my inner struggles and thoughts and knew I could not express them or ask questions of anyone. I did not leave the church because of my kids, but I did leave God for all practical purposes. I struggled with an addiction for many years…2 years sober today…and at my lowest point God removed the scales from my eyes and I was able to see my life and the mess I had made of it. I walked away and with the love and mercy of my husband and the wonderful cleansing blood of my Savior, I have changed my life.

I am still in a church family where there is not much of an environment to ask the questions or to share struggles, but I do have my small group. I can tell you there are 3 former addicts of various kinds in our groups and all of us were “raised in the church”. We agree, disagree, question, confront, encourage, and love. That is why I stay. God is moving at our church, however, so I am hoping things will change. We have 2 new ministers, I think you applied there many years ago, before OC.

Anyway…thanks for the comments. I am friends with Josh Ross and his awesome parents and family. My hubby used to throw him a football when he was a youngster. LOL. We would love to meet you and visit with you guys some day…we are up north of town. If Josh loves you, so do we!

God bless.

Karise Cheatham

by Karise Cheatham (Nov 12 2011, 8:08 pm)

Josh,
I continue to be thankful for your ability and willingness to bring difficult questions into the light of day. I am a member of that “Boomer” generation and the restlessness and questioning are somewhat indicative of those of us that were raised in the 60’s and 70’s. We were raised by parents and grandparents that had different expectations of their work, family and church. It might be interesting to compare those generations and see what, if any, answers come forward.
I also read and loved “Leaving Church” by Barbara Brown Taylor. I didn’t find her journey as shocking as some might. Maybe because I witnessed my parents living fully what they believed they needed to do within their small world. They spent their entire adult lives giving back to their community as a mayor, a city councilman, a school board member, a county commissioner, a business owner, a speaker for adolescent sexuality with the Girl Scouts and a president of the State of Michigan PTA. For my parents, the call was not within the walls of a church building, but was a life poured out in the community helping to create change where they could, in the name of God.
I love this quote from Brown’s book – “The whole purpose of the Bible, it seems to me, is to convince people to set the written word down in order to become living words in the world for God’s sake. For me, this willing conversion of ink back to blood is the full substance of faith. In practice, this means that my faith is far more relational than doctrinal.” She finishes this thought by saying that her reading of scripture has persuaded her that “God is found in right relationships, not in right ideas.”
For myself, I am learning to be comfortable with the uncomfortable. God has been stretching me in ways I would have rather, to be absolutely honest, avoided. I am being led to places, of brick and morter and of emotion, that I would not choose to go. I am being lovingly forced out of my limited vision for myself. And, while I choose to hold dearly to the loving, broken, noble and imperfect busom of my church community, I am also trying to trust in a God who is not limited by my fears and discomfort. I don’t believe the one needs to be sacrificed for the other.
Love and miss you dearly, Josh. God bless you and your precious family.

Heidi Lytle

by Heidi Lytle (Nov 12 2011, 10:02 pm)

Not many years ago, I was a take-it or leave-it church goer, one pretending to live the right life knowing I was a seriously messed up guy. Through some serious pain and being put in a place where confession was the only way out with any hope, I found a church family that loved me unconditionally and allowed me to say things I never thought I could say as well as challenge me with their own thoughts and struggles. I cannot imagine leaving my church and hope those who are in that place can find the joy I have found in the body in Decatur, Texas.

by Jeff (Nov 13 2011, 1:32 am)

Jenny–Of course, by church I don’t mean it has to meet at a building on a Sunday morning. I mean a community of people committed to the teachings of Jesus and the practices of the church. An intentional community. Does that make sense. Much love.

by josh (Nov 13 2011, 6:36 am)

Thanks Kenny. I hope our paths cross one day. I hope everyone in here read Ian’s comment. His original blog got this whole thing started.
JG

by josh (Nov 13 2011, 6:37 am)

Karise–two years sober. That’s incredible. Thanks for sharing part of your journey here. All God’s best to you this week.

JG

by josh (Nov 13 2011, 6:38 am)

Heidi–so good to hear from you. Sara Barton and I used to say, “Ask Heidi what she thinks…” OR “Get Heidi’s take on that”–you are a wise counsel.
I’d forgotten that quote from Taylor. I love that book for so many different reasons!
Kara and I miss you all too. Give our love to your family!

by josh (Nov 13 2011, 6:40 am)

Jeff–right on brother. Right on.

by josh (Nov 13 2011, 6:40 am)

Grady–I’d love to hear a recording of the session you did with Siburt. That was a great experience I’m sure.

Donna–that’s beautiful. Wow.

Karen–thanks for your words.

by josh (Nov 13 2011, 6:42 am)

One friend e-mailed this response to me: “I think you raise a lot of issues there that are seldom ever surfaced — especially the self-indictment and rather self-serving ways we/I talk about/critique “church.”

I also think the answer to the question depends upon what we mean by “church.” If we mean by “church” the ways/manner “church” is typically done these days in the U.S., then one can clearly “leave church” and “be Christian.” But if we mean by “church” an intentional community with specific practices in which we believe the grace of God is manifest, which gathers regularly to discern together what it means to live life under the profession that “Jesus is Lord,” then it is not possible to “be Christian” and “leave church,” anymore than it is possible to “be a basketball player” and have no basketball team. Or so it seems to me…”

by josh (Nov 13 2011, 6:47 am)

Josh, I think you’re right about the difficulties of community. But I think the problems with the church go deeper than that.

Jesus critiqued the religion of his day for more than just insincerity. He offered an alternative that would have no positions of authority, no divisions between people, no places or times of worship.

The problem is that we’ve subverted what Jesus did. This bubbles up as all kinds of systemic issues.

-Micah

by Micah Redding (Nov 13 2011, 7:09 am)

Great article, Josh, and lots of good and insightful comments by all. I have a slightly different view and it begins with the challenge to not place all who are “at risk” of leaving church in the category of those leaving, or giving up on church. Can we create a new category within church for those who seeking church but having a hard time finding it within their current church, or at least having a hard time separating and distinguishing what IS church from what is NOT church.
Lots of stuff that is not church gets
all mixed together under the umbrella called church. I label the distinction, those parts of “church” – methods and motivations – that are worldly and less than pure (including politics, power, greed, pride, etc.), these I refer to as Religious Systems and I have yet to see a church that has not incorporated and accepted, at least to some degree, some such compromises. Usually this has it’s origins in expedience or convenience, but much of what we do and how we do it has deep roots in tradition – so deep that these are considered almost on par with Scripture. 
     So, many of us whom some would label as those at risk of leaving the church, are really just those who are sincerely looking for the church to be the church. I won’t take the time or space here to give an exhaustive list, but a few that are problematic are sectarianism, nationalism, exclusivism, insider-ism – generally speaking, majoring in the minors and minoring in the majors. The disciples we are making are about as likely to be adherents to a particular form of Religious System as they are disciples of Christ – and they are highly likely to be confused about the distinction between the two. 
     Finally, the frustration that personally experience is the gist of another point you touched on. In the church that tolerates and does its best to embrace me, there is virtually no opportunity for dialog on such matters because “the powers that be” are thoroughly convinced that, apart from some possible minor adjustments, we’ve got this church thing figured out purring like a kitten. And, in all fairness, the model under which we function is “effective,” but it is more than the church and less than the church in many ways which are not open to examination or discussion. 
     Hope this is not too cynical for you. I guarantee that my perspective is not an isolated one. 

by Jeff Robinson (Nov 13 2011, 7:27 am)

Micah–your description of the early church is intriguing, yet, many still worshiped at the temple, synagogue, homes at apparently appointed/scheduled times (I Cor. 11).

I’m making a psychological point here too. We project frustrations with self onto the church so that we feel better about talking about how “the church isn’t what she should be”

I’m all about challenging the church. I just don’t think you can quit the church (in all of her diverse and mysterious forms) and still follow Jesus.

by josh (Nov 13 2011, 1:38 pm)

Jeff,

That’s beautiful and interesting. I think this is another great discussion. Sort of like cleaning out the attic, having a rummage sale for all the things that aren’t church that are “pretending to be the church.”

Excellent. Thanks friend.

by josh (Nov 13 2011, 1:40 pm)

Can you have a church without that church being an institution? I think that may be what Micah is getting at. My issue with church as institution is that the main goal of an institution is to keep it growing/prevent it from dying. The ethic of Jesus seems to me to run counter to the ethic of the institution, that is, seeking faithfulness over (perceived) effectiveness.

For me, that’s my biggest struggle on this topic. Churches are necessarily communities, and have some sort of order, and even a heirarchy of sorts (this is where Micah and I diverge) but nothing about the first century church strikes me as institutional. The church in the new testament didn’t seem interested in self preservation, rather they seemed to focus on embodying Christ by being intentionally vulnerable. Giving so that all have enough is vulnerable. Using the language of empire and challenging the truths of said empire certainly makes them vulnerable. Institutional church in America spends the majority of its contribution on things to try to bring more wealthy people to the church… To contribute more money to the church. Paid staff are discouraged from saying things that need to be said for fear of alienating people (thinking back to the civil rights movement, and current church positions regarding gays and lesbians or war and nationalism).

So maybe for me, it seems possible that one has to leave “church” to find church. For me, I found church in relationships with people on the margins who have a far greater faith than do I. They are people who dont go to institutional churches, bc very little about churches focused on growth and strong families and programs and cultural assimilation makes any sense to those who live day to day, hand to mouth, trusting in God rather than trusting in their own ability to plan for the future, and do things bigger and better.

This is long, and I’m sure I could say more. I’m still in the institutional church, because the thing about institutions is they are created by man, but man doesn’t control them. The ball was rolling long before any of us got here. There have to be people to throw prophetic wrenches in the gears of the institution once in a while, and that has to be done from the inside for it to have any effect.

by Justin (Nov 13 2011, 6:06 pm)

You wrote:

“I’m not giving up on church for the same reason I’m not giving up on Kara…

“It’s hard for me to imagine Martin Luther, Martin Luther King Jr., Bonhoeffer –or the original disciples for that matter– ever giving up and leaving the church because, turns out, church is hard work. It is it possible that privilege and affluence are partly behind our rationale to “give up on church” in the first place?”

Brilliant. Thank you for speaking the truth. Just as their is much talk about the way consumerism drives so many choices made about church, I think the old selfish self is lurking too. And I am not immune to that carnal impulse either.

Grace and Peace,

Rex

by K. Rex Butts (Nov 14 2011, 8:55 am)

The book “Leaving Church” served as a keystone for my choice to stay in local church ministry after being pushed out of it. How I practice the idea we can struggle together and still be true to our individual callings from God was informed by voices like Taylor.

I think self-serving forms of critique are what kill community, and we (church families) could be so much more worthy of the name “Kingdom” if we critiqued for the benefit of people next to us instead of for ourselves.

by Dana (Nov 14 2011, 9:19 am)

Josh thanks,
I have wrestled with the Lord since i was a young tot. Which makes over 55 years if I started thinking around 7 yrs old about Church and God and stuff. Its easy for the consumers of your generation to leave things behind because its what consumers do. Everything goes in the trash…cars, televisions , cell phones,friends,old parents, morals, unborn children and yes…. “religion”. Its because consumer mentality is all about “me”. It is a hopeless trap. And Moses was a great example of the time and effort that has to go into changing a man. (what “I” want and “I” need, because “I” can.) It was 80 years before God could begin to use Moses. 80 years of training to prepare him for the real training he was about to get for the next 40. The problem with the consumer christian is a deep yearning to be Moses…and they think they can “buy” that position…That is why many of us go out and get training (a shortcut) to be a minister and have their own church, and write books, so they can do it “their” way. To the consumer mentality it is the right way…(Its the American Dream)…and so they end up wasting their lives and their family with their struggle with Christ and “His” church…But a deeper truth is not that they really want to be a Moses but like Adam and Eve their desire to be God himself yet they never recognize that goal. I think Bono sang it best back in the early 80’s for mankind…I quote him; “and I still haven’t found what I’m searching for”

by phil (Nov 14 2011, 9:48 am)

Amen Dana. Thanks Rex!

by Josh (Nov 14 2011, 12:36 pm)

Josh, I bookmarked this after seeing you post to fb over the weekend and just got to it. Wanted to chime in and say I so agree with your thoughts–especially “…turns out, church is hard work” and the following. Who’d have thought?

by Casey (Nov 14 2011, 2:01 pm)

Josh, what a timely entry into your blog for I have found myself re-reading BBT’s book. Not sure what the difference is this time around (probably the spirit helping me) but her book has much more meaning. In it she describes a Holy Spirit encounter wherein she perceived an illumination of ordinary things and people as if lit from within. I get that! More and more I’m experiencing similarperceptions outside the church rather than within, at least I think that is the case. These thin place encounters are tricky for me but I choose to believe they are just that, thin places.

Love your blog and everyone’s thoughts.

by Barry Bunn (Nov 14 2011, 7:58 pm)

Justin–thanks for sharing that.

Casey–welcome to this blog! Great to hear from you.

Phil–I don’t think consumerism is tied to any one generation but I do think it manifested itself in a way with Boomers in unprecedented fashion. My friend Randy Harris likes to say, “My college students are the most spoiled generation in the history of the world because they were raised by the 2nd most spoiled generation in the world.” All that has created a spirit that “when things get messy I move on to the next place.”

by josh (Nov 15 2011, 8:46 am)

Barry,

Thanks for the note. Have we met before? Glad you are re-reading BBT. She’s powerful.

by josh (Nov 15 2011, 8:47 am)

Josh…
We met at Tulsa a couple of times. I was hoping to meet you on the bb court if you ever made it to Duncanville TX. ;)

by Barry Bunn (Nov 15 2011, 11:23 am)

Josh, this may be the best blog I’ve read of yours. Your passion/love for the dysfunctional church is encouraging for young ministers like me. I have a great deal of hope about the future. The more we ask questions and probe deeper, the more space is created for God to surprise us.

by Brad Schrum (Nov 15 2011, 2:09 pm)

Thanks Brad. I’m proud of the journey you are on too.

by josh (Nov 15 2011, 3:15 pm)

“Leaving Church” is my favorite Barbara Brown Taylor book so far. I haven’t read them all. And my wife Angi has read more than I have.

While much of it resonates with me, when I think about leaving church, I feel like Peter saying to Jesus, “To whom shall we go?” The church is His bride. He’s with her in the bread and the wine, serving it; with her to bring her prayers to the Father; within her in the very presence of His Spirit. She’s never going to be perfect because I’m never going to be perfect, but He sees her that way because He makes her that way … and that is the way I need to see her (and myself) and be part of her.

by Keith Brenton (Nov 15 2011, 5:41 pm)

Dear Josh,

As probably the oldest of your respondents, I would like to tune in with 73 years of my experience with church.

At first, it was a place to go and have fun in Sunday School and youth meetings. In my early 20’s, my college friends challenged my “shallow” and “naive” beliefs.

Then as parenthood began to mature me, I saw and felt the deep love God has for his children and began to see that as the adult in various situations, I could make a difference by staying and fighting, suggesting and pushing, praying and crying. (For example, I never thought in my lifetime I would see what women and female children are doing now at my congregation.) Therefore, my “winter of discontent” is not developing. With occasional challenges and bumps, the Spirit and I have smoothed off the edges of my faith. I now have the feeling that God and I and a few gray-haired friends have made a difference in the church and will continue to do so until death.

by Judy Thomas (Nov 16 2011, 10:47 am)

Judy: Amen, and amen, and amen.
I love you much and miss you dearly.

by josh (Nov 16 2011, 1:10 pm)

3 Trackbacks

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