excellent quote, josh. that henri embodied this in his own life, not just in his writing or lecturing, for me makes it all the more…well, powerful.

There’s also a danger of each of us redefining the church to be an institution that need our protection. When that happens all the other purposes and goals for God’s people become secondary to preserving the institution.

Although it may seem outlandish by our culture norms, it seems that in the “Jesus Way,” power in some ways can be a synonym for suffering.

The quote you have in “The Feast” about suffering, from the Uganda missionary has been chipping away at the caked-on layers of my heart since I read it. I think about how Jesus could have “de-throned” Caesar whenever he wanted but instead of conquering Rome he allowed Rome to crucify him so that he would suffer alongside those suffering under Roman oppression as well.

I think about Dietrich Bonheoffer who made the decision to go back to Germany because he felt he could not participate in building up of Christianity in Germany if he did not share in the trials of his people.

I think about MLK Jr. (and his wife) who could have taken a secure teaching job up north, but instead decided to make the conscious decision to live in the Jim Crow South and live in the pain and oppression of fellow African Americans.

But what breaks my heart is that I realize I want to help, but I don’t always want to suffer. So I think of ways that I can make a difference in the lives of the oppressed but without “tabernacle-ing” among them.

Phil, are you saying that Jesus died to protest Roman oppression?

rjohns: I don’t know if Phil was saying that or not. Atonement (wrestling with the meaning of Jesus’ death) is deep and varied. There is a strand in church history that reads the death of Jesus (Luke’s gospel, Ephesians) as exposing the ways “the powers dominate”, thus defeating them.

I can write more on that if you are interested.

Yes, if you have time to write on that, I think I might benefit from reading it. But as you imply, there are different aspects to the Atonement. I would like to see a balanced exposition of what the Bible has to say about the Atonement. By “balanced,” I mean a summary of what the Bible has to say about each aspect of the Atonement. Or perhaps that is too ambitious a task for a blog post…? In any case, thanks for your reply.

Let me know how I can get in touch with you and I’ll send you some material. It’s a fascinating discussion. I’ll say this. Much of evangelical Christianity misses the depth and meaning of the cross in light of Scripture and church history. Much too long for a blog.

rjohns,

I apologize for my vagueness; no, I wasn’t suggesting Christ died to only protest the Roman oppression; I was trying to suggest Jesus came to display a whole new way of living which involved how we deal with “power.” Do we try to advance our name and status through power or try to advance the kingdom of God through the power of the cross?

Jesus could have been another Alexander the Great if he had chosen to give in to the tempter (as we so often do) but instead chose to claim his messiah-ship a different way (through death on a cross). And I tend to think that if Jesus would have “came, saw and conquered” instead of came, loved and died; the Jesus movement would not have happened.

As far as the atonement conversation goes, I’m sure Josh is more equipped to help. rjohns, I hope I cleared up any question you had regarding my comment. Peace to you!

Phil,

Thank you for clarifying further. You are implying that Jesus does not want us to advance our name and status through power, and I like that. But if we are to advance the kingdom of God through the power of the cross, what specifically is the “power of the cross?” Also, how do we know that Jesus was really the Messiah?

Oh, and Josh: Fair enough–it is a deep topic–too deep for a blog post. I’ll make sure you have my email address, and I will read whatever you send me. Thanks.

rjohns,

I hope your day is going well! You said “what specifically is the “power of the cross?”

To me the power of the cross is “the Jesus Way.” And I think this is displayed on many different levels. With a broad stroke it is to love the lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. With more detailed strokes the one place I think to look to see what the “Jesus Way” looks like is to look to the “Sermon on the Mount.” This is a collection of teachings from Jesus explaining what it looks like to let God reign in your life (to live in the Kingdom of God). For example, loving your enemies, living as an incarnation of Christ (being salt), generosity to the needy, etc..

The power of the cross in one sense is what I believed happened on the cross (the atonement conversation) but in another sense the power of the cross for me means dying to myself and putting others first. This is ultimately what Christ did; died so that others may be reconciled to God (live).

Your next question is rather a complex one, but a good one. You asked “how do we know that Jesus was really the Messiah?” I first “believed” he was because it was the norm to do so in the family I grew up in. In college, I walked down roads of doubt because I realized that most of what I believed growing up was sort of a screen put up covering all the questions about God, Christ, and scripture; the screen was put up so I didn’t ask those kinds of things, because asking led to doubting and doubting led to “Un-Christ-like (according to my background).”

I know there are scientific and archeological conversations relating to your question, that I am under qualified to have and honestly am not that interested in. But I believe Jesus was (is) the Messiah because how I experience him in my life and in the life of others. I believe he was who he said he was yes because he fulfilled prophesies that were written about him, but mostly because I see how he is alive today working in lives, breaking cycles of addictions, transforming people and giving hope.

Your question is tough to answer in this setting because words often fail to explain what needs to be said. Actions however, usually give better meaning.

rjohns, I think your questions are valid and I would love to hear more of them, and what I know about Josh, I’m sure he would too. Keep asking those questions; peace to you!

Phil,

Peace to you too! I appreciate your time.

You said, “The power of the cross in one sense is what I believed happened on the cross (the atonement conversation).”

I guess this cuts right to the heart of what I am (in my own fumbling way!) trying to ask: What really happened up there on the cross? Did a transaction of some sort take place? Or was it nothing more than an example of how we can live sacrificially for others? Because you speak of an “atonement conversation” does that mean that you don’t believe there is a firm answer yet as to what happened on the cross?

I ask this because a group of people with different opinions having a conversation about something (i.e. the atonement) doesn’t seem like a very firm foundation for anyone to base their life or beliefs on. Is there an end to the “atonement conversation” where we come to a conclusion?

rjohns,

Yes, I believe a transaction did occur. I believe when Christ died he made a more intimate way for mankind to approach the father (symbolism of veil splitting in temple see Matt. 27:51) And by doing so became a mediator between us and the father (see Hebrews 8:6, 9:15, 12:24).

I believe that Christ lived a life fully dedicated to the father’s will which made him a “perfect” sacrifice. I believe that because I am a sinful person a sacrifice was needed on my behalf to make me in right standings before God. And God being the loving and pursuing father he is chose to become man and die for me.

There are so many questions about the Trinity, about the ways God works (including what happened on the cross) that I have asked and don’t have answers for. But I continue seeking and having conversations such as these so we can learn and grow from one another; for I am sure you can expose me to things I have never thought about.

You asked is there an end to the “atonement conversation?” I’m not sure there can be an end to something so mysterious, and I wonder if we try to put an end if we in a way limit what happened on the cross. For me, what I have concluded, I believe has only scratched the surface of what God did on the cross through his son.

If you don’t mind me asking, where are you on your journey in life right now: Christian, another religion, agnostic, etc? Peace to you!

Phil

Hi Phil,

I don’t mind you asking, so I will answer.

Although raised in the Church of Christ, and baptized at a fairly young age, I never understood that I needed a Savior to be saved. I thought I could earn my way to heaven by being and doing good. I honestly don’t remember if this is what I was taught explicitly. Maybe I was never really listening and assumed these things on my own. Because I could never quite be good enough–I couldn’t meet my own standards, much less God’s–religion was a very frustrating thing for me.

Now I have given up on the idea of being good enough, and I admit that I am a vile sinner who deserves eternal, conscious punishment. This is not self-loathing, it is an honest appraisal of my spiritual state. The last hope I have for salvation, then, is to trust in Jesus alone. He lived the sinless life I should have lived, died the death I deserve, and suffered God’s wrath for my sins. Then he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. This proved that God accepted Jesus’ voluntary sacrifice, and that he defeated death. If I trust only in Jesus, when God looks at me, he sees Jesus’ righteousness instead of my filthiness, and I can therefore approach God as a son, not an enemy. Relying on Jesus as savior and not on myself is very liberating, because it allows me to live a life of repentance that is motivated not by fear and guilt, but by love, relief, and gratitude.

Which brings me to what I am doing here…

In reading this blog, and the blogs of other members of Otter Creek, I see an expression of faith that often seems very different from my own. It may be only a difference of expression or emphasis, while our underlying beliefs are much the same–I don’t know. Your last post, specifically the part about needing a sacrifice for your sins and Jesus being that sacrifice, rings true for me. However, I had to do a bit of digging to get you to state it that directly. In any case, I am digging not to be annoying or critical, but to find out where the common ground is, and where it is not.